Jason Buck, Co-founder and Chief Technology Officer at Firstline

How can clinicians be guided to make important decisions with relevant, real time medical information? Jason Buck, co-founder and Chief Technology Officer at Firstline, explores an innovative app that allows instant access to customized treatment guidance using information design. The Firstline app focuses on combating antimicrobial resistance with collaboration and building trust through transparency. 

Jason Buck is an entrepreneur and software developer, currently co-founder and Chief Technology Officer at Firstline, a clinical decision support platform for the treatment of infectious diseases.

Previously he led an e-commerce photography venture for 15 years, creating and evolving partnerships with some of the largest retail and publishing organizations in the UK, and distributing content and products that touched the lives of millions. The photographic publishing outputs of this can be found in nationally important archives around the world, from the V&A to MoMA.

With a degree in philosophy, Jason enjoys tackling the sophisticated challenges of healthcare, fusing an ability to design novel technology with the creativity and commercial experience to shape complex products that yield tangible human benefits.

Show Notes

• Jason Buck shares his background as a technology and information design expert in health care. [04:19]

• What is the Firstline app and how does it help clinicians? [05:44]

• What two groups collaborated to create the information design for the app? [07:55]

• How can we address antimicrobial resistance (AMR) challenges in each country? [11:22]

• What are the three major components of the app that distribute important findings between organizations? [17:05]

• How did the app change the way that clinicians received COVID-19 protocol updates? [21:38] 

• How can we move data from silos to an interconnected ecosystem of clinical information? [24:00]

• Product information that is accessible, visible and transparent to all clinicians concurrently creates trust. [28:02]

• What are the factors that drive this optimistic viewpoint?  [31:09]

• What’s the big elephant in the room that’s causing AMR infections? [33:27]

• Why is it important that we solve the increasing prevalence of AMR globally? [37:29]

Transcript

Bisi Williams  0:00  

Hi. I'm Bisi Williams, you're listening to Health2049.

Jason Buck  0:08  

Knowledge and the expertise of clinicians is siloed. We take the specialist long form research and evidence-heavy documentation and we turn that into very terse algorithmic guidance, which is then suitable for use at the point of care. Let's say you're a general hospital, you might want to lean on the pediatric expertise from a luminary pediatric hospital. So you could connect your own pediatric recommendations for meningitis, for example, to the pediatric hospital's own meningitis recommendations. That means that if the pediatric hospital change their guidance in any particular way, you'll be immediately informed and you can then absorb those updates into your own guidance, if you so choose. We think this is a real game changer. Specialist information can flow between organizations almost instantaneously.

Bisi Williams  0:58  

The 20th century revolution in antibiotics is one of the most impactful medical developments in modern history. We now have preventative vaccines, cures for certain cancers and access to high end technologies that have been saving untold millions of human lives and increasing longevity. Despite all of the advancements, infectious diseases standout by far as the single major cause of childhood death until the age of 14 all over the world. If we thought managing infectious disease was difficult before, what happens when a new disease starts infecting people around the world that doctors have never encountered before. Where do physicians get their information? Who decides which information to treat diseases pertinent? How do nurses and physicians manage to treat this new disease properly, while managing the spread of existing infectious diseases? 

Imagine a world where knowledge moves faster than disease. This is the mission of my guest today Jason buck and his company Firstline. Jason is the CTO of Firstline. He's also an entrepreneur and a designer. He's an expert in information design and technology. He uses his unique set of skills to build a clinical knowledge platform called Firstline that has become an indispensable tool for hospitals around the world in the treatment of all infectious diseases. In addition to their extensive hospital client base, Firstline partners with leading healthcare institutions around the world, including the WHO, the United Nations, and government health organizations such as New York State Department of Health, and the Public Health Administration of Canada. I'm excited to welcome Jason Buck to our show. Jason, welcome.

Jason Buck  3:59  

Thank you very much Bisi. It is lovely to be talking to you today.

Bisi Williams  4:02  

I'm excited to talk to you. So Jason, before we jump into the meat of the question, I'd love a little bit of background information. Can you tell us a bit about your background and how you come to be this technology and information expert?

Jason Buck  4:19  

I think you you may be a little generous in your intro. I can give you a little bit of background. I moved to Canada from the UK in 2004. I grew up in Southern England, but now call Saltspring Island on the West Coast my home. I consider myself an entrepreneur by trade, albeit with a focus on and a love for technology. I came out of University with a degree in philosophy which I consider to be a toolkit that I use each and every day. Critical thinking, analytical thought has been indispensable through my career. I'm a self taught programmer. I'm a programmer through necessity. I love building and developing products. 

Before becoming a partner and CTO of Firstline, I spent 15 or so years in the early part of my career building and running an e-commerce and publishing business in the UK. My role at Firstline, aside from some commercial wayfinding, is to help our teams create software with sufficient flexibility to accommodate all the nuance and outliers so prevalent in infectious diseases and clinical knowledge, and to create software that has real world impact in the hands of clinicians.

Bisi Williams  5:38  

I think that's amazing. And so can you tell us a little bit more about your company, Firstline?

Jason Buck  5:44  

Sure. What we set out to do is to create clinical decision support for infectious diseases with a focus squarely on AMR, antimicrobial resistance, and stewardship of antimicrobials. We have something over 400 clients that range from small community hospitals to very large healthcare organizations across 13 countries, I think six languages, we work with an organization's ID, infectious disease specialists. Normally there are only two or three specialists per organization. And these are the individuals who create and manage their localized clinical guidelines for the treatment of infectious disease. And they distribute that information to hundreds or even thousands of the frontline healthcare providers actually caring for patients and making prescriptions. 

We take the specialists’ long form research and evidence-heavy documentation and we turn that into very terse algorithmic guidance, which is then suitable for use at the point of care. We distribute that guidance to all of an organization's providers through our mobile and web applications. So as a provider, you have at your fingertips on your phone, localized guidance from your organization's ID specialists in seconds. The aim is that from the moment a provider opens the Firstline app, we get them to the guidance that they need in something around 90 seconds. That's the aim.

Bisi Williams  7:20  

You know, that's really remarkable. Can you describe for our listeners, looking at your app, there are hundreds and hundreds of diseases and hundreds and hundreds of medications and hundreds and hundreds of protocols and you're not a doctor, how did you get this ability to understand and synthesize this information and put it in an app in a meaningful way, that someone, a doctor or nurse can access all of the body of knowledge in 90 seconds to treat an illness?

Jason Buck  7:55  

The major component here is information design. And I think I can take a little bit of credit for the information design on the software side for creating the systems that hold this information and that can can help structure and shape, etc. The majority of the credit for the information design that lands on the phone of the provider, the credit sits with two groups. One is the infectious disease specialists themselves within each organization. They're the guys with the local knowledge and in the treatment of infectious disease, localization is absolute paramount, it might be worth just explaining why that is. Resistance patterns to infection varies by location. Bacteria can develop resistance to particular medications over a period of time. And that resistance varies by locale. And it's not just a variation from Canada to Ghana. It's a variation from Vancouver Island to Vancouver. You can get very small changes and resistance that change prescribing recommendations over relatively small areas. So prescribing infectious diseases is location specific. 

Back to the credit, the IT specialists in an organization carry a huge amount of that, the other group, our clinical content team. Firstline has a group of scientists and we have some clinical expertise as well, who take the clinicians long form documentation and try to distill it. In some other kind of use cases, the way that this kind of happens, the WHO produce an essential medicine list, it's updated every two years and it's intended to be the reference manual for all the medicines that are needed to operate a modern healthcare system. 

For the first time this year, they're also distributing an antibiotic handbook. The main antibiotic handbook is a tome of evidence-based research backed information. It's something like 450 pages. So they asked us to create an accompanying series of infographics. So a content team created, I think 96 infographics for the antibiotics contained in the essential medicines list, along with the treatment of some common syndromes for adult and pediatric patients. And this kind of mirrors the use cases that we're talking about here and the information design split, long form copy for canonical documentation used by researchers, frequently just as a statement of record as well. And then infographics for use of the point of care and for education. And the distillation of that long form information into point of care is a really key skill. It's not particularly easy. And yeah, that's something that our folks, our teams seem to really excel at.

Bisi Williams  11:00  

That's fascinating to turn 450 pages into 90, of very useful information and information graphics. That's fantastic. Now, I would love to launch into the future with you, Jason. And if you would please share with our listeners, your vision for health and wellness in 2049.

Jason Buck  11:22  

My vision comes through the lens of antimicrobial resistance, AMR. The timing of this conversation is interesting. AMR has been a WHO global health priority for years. But a study published just a couple of weeks ago in the Lancet, for the first time identified AMR as a leading cause of death worldwide. And the numbers in the study are really striking. In 2019, the deaths of nearly 5 million people are associated with drug resistant bacterial infections.

Bisi Williams  11:56  

What does that mean exactly?

Jason Buck  11:58  

The next step, I think is perhaps more pertinent, which is 1.2 million deaths directly attributable to AMR. So what that means is that the patient was infected with an infection, a pathogen that was incurable using modern medicine. It's probably worth also saying that the epicenter of the AMR deaths identified in the Lancet article is Sub Saharan Africa, which highlights some global inequity. But it also should be added that it is not a developing nation problem or an African problem, it is a truly global challenge. Every country in the world has antimicrobial resistance challenges. And we need to address it as such. 

There are a couple of approaches to this, a couple of wings to this to battling AMR. The first is the drug pipeline. That's where most attention and funding has gone. We need new antibiotics. There's a big industry fund that has put multiple billions of dollars into an initiative aiming to create two to four new antibiotics by 2030. That two to four numbers, pretty small, these things are very hard to develop, very expensive and take a considerable period of time. Resistance to a particular medication is frequently found very shortly after it's introduced into clinical use. Sometimes it's actually even found before it's introduced to clinical use. And within a decade, resistance can be so frequent, that the medication can be of actually only limited therapeutic use. 

That's why the second wing of this is so significant, which is stewardship and stewardship takes many forms. In its most simplistic form, it's ensuring the right medicine, the right dosage, right duration is prescribed. And very frequently, that means actually no drugs are prescribed. And that minimizes the opportunity for pathogens to develop resistance. The complication with AMR is that localization thing that we talked about. Having access to resistance data is enormously significant. 

What Firstline tries to do is to take the knowledge from infectious disease specialists within an organization and drop that into the top pocket on the phone of Frontline providers so that they have the information that they need, they have the guidance that they need, including the resistance data, to be able to make the right decision about the prescribing of an antimicrobial. 

One of the factors that we saw through our experience in COVID-19 pandemic, is that knowledge and the expertise of clinicians is siloed. Perhaps the easiest way is to explain through an example. We saw in March 2020, a lot of the ID specialists that we work all said the same thing, they were overwhelmed. They had providers who needed clear guidance from them. But the specialists were overwhelmed with the amount of information they had coming at them from so many different sources and so much of it was conflicting. There were no defined methods of collaborating. So we had people relying on professional networks, LinkedIn, Twitter, etc. 

One of our clients, Fraser Health here in British Columbia, was one of the first in the world to create a point of care guideline for COVID-19. And it covered the things that you would expect, PPE availability and usage, triage, diagnostics, treatment recommendations. It was created by a small number of specialists and distributed to, I think something around two and a half thousand of their providers, which was great. So Fraser was in a much better position. 

But other healthcare organizations were still struggling. Fraser's information was in a silo completely unusable by other specialists and other organizations. So our clinical content team reached out to other clients across Canada and the US and with Fraser's permission, they did, essentially a glorified copy and paste of the decision trees of their clinical guidance from Fraser into other clients accounts. And within weeks, nearly half of the hospitals in Canada, and our clients across the US had localized that Fraser guidance and distributed effective COVID guidelines to all providers. That manual process is what we think can be significantly improved upon in the future. And that is the foundation of the path that we are heading down with Firstline at the moment.

Bisi Williams  16:53  

That's amazing. It makes 100% sense. And I'd love for you to just expand a little bit on the three pillars of your big idea.

Jason Buck  17:05  

Okay, there are three major components to taking knowledge out of these silos. The first one is what we call the library. What we've done is we have created an open resource of 1000s and 1000s of peer reviewed guidelines produced by infectious disease specialists and stewardship teams from all over the world. And organizations can then browse and copy those guidelines and adapt them to their own local needs for own formulary or local resistance patterns or local empiric protocols. Whatever it may be. 

It's a single click operation for the ID specialist to copy for example, community acquired pneumonia guidance from UCLA or Scripps to their own account, adapt it to their own local factors, and then distribute it to all of their providers. To give you an idea of the impact of this, one of our ID specialists suggested that it takes something around 150 hours to create an infectious disease guideline from scratch. It's a significant investment. The estimate that they gave us was that it took around a fifth of the time, about 30 hours to adapt a guideline from a pre existing source. So it results in a tremendous acceleration, and the ability to create guidance for these specialists. 

That's a great start, but the next part, what we call content subscriptions, really makes this thing catch fire. It makes a knowledge move lightning fast and in really transparent ways. I think probably the easiest way to explain this is through an example. Let's say you're a general hospital, you might want to lean on the pediatric expertise from a luminary pediatric hospital. So you could connect your own pediatric recommendations for meningitis, for example, to the pediatric hospitals own meningitis recommendations. That means that if the pediatric hospital change their guidance in any particular way, you'll be immediately informed and you can then absorb those updates into your own guidance, if you so choose. We think this is a real game changer. It means that specialist information can flow between organizations almost instantaneously, and it can flow between completely disconnected organizations. 

The third part is a community. We have created a private forum for ID specialists to discuss all things related to infectious diseases. We have, I believe, four to five hundred of the leading ID experts in North America discussing medications empiric treatments, lots of COVID-19 stuff, monoclonal antibodies that I don't fully understand. It's a private peer to peer network of specialists explicitly created to share knowledge and best practices. 

There's also a human support element here. These are guys who are faced with some of the attitude or behavior or pushback that's come up in the last couple of years. So there have been pieces of advice exchanged about how to handle abuse on Twitter, how to explain the reasoning behind a particular course of action. So there's a little bit of human support in there as well, not just professional exchange of knowledge. These are individuals who would conceivably normally, in pre COVID times meet maybe once a year at a conference, and they can now lean on each other skills and experience on a daily basis. 

We think that this is fundamental to enabling the flow of knowledge between these disconnected, or completely unrelated healthcare organizations. So together, we think these three components go a very long way towards taking clinical knowledge out of the silos in each organization, and enabling really meaningful collaboration on the best clinical guidance.

Bisi Williams  21:12  

I mean, it sounds a little bit like Nirvana because one of the things that you talk about is allowing for clarity and focus with the information design. And I really want to talk about the design of this as well as the clinical outputs, but tell me about the value of brevity when it comes to knowledge.

Jason Buck  21:38  

We have countless examples of instances where brevity has created a better impact. Perhaps one example is, in the early days of COVID-19, healthcare organizations were understandably floundering. There was a huge amount that was unknown about this thing. One of the Canadian provinces was distributing, I think it was a six to eight page Word document, by email each morning and on their intranet of all the PPE procedures and all the things that frontline clinicians needed to know. And the document landed in providers inboxes each morning, a fresh document, no hint of what had changed, just here's what you need to know today. And that imposes a huge burden on a group of folks that were already incredibly burdened, incredibly stressed. 

When the province became a client, we took that guidance, and we turned that into very terse navigable algorithmic guidance, a few screens on a mobile phone, a few taps. And we added a changelog, a very simple design change that had a fundamental impact on the absorption of that information. It meant that providers got real time updates to their mobiles, they could see in seconds, what's new today. What do I need to know today that has changed since yesterday? The biggest change wasn't actually the technology, Word document and mobile, the biggest change was understanding the needs of the providers and designing information to meet those, which is the same paradigm as we were talking about a few minutes ago with the WHO. The difference between scientific research heavy, long form information versus what do I need to do at the point of care? At the point of care, I want to figure out quickly, what is the right course of action that I should be taking here. Focusing on the job to be done when you're constructing information seems to be absolutely fundamental.

Bisi Williams  23:49  

I love that and you say in the future clinical knowledge will move beyond silos, and move into an ecosystem. Can you tell us a bit more about that?

Jason Buck  24:00  

Yeah, I think one of the things that has surprised us over the last couple of years, when we had our first experiences with COVID-19, and we recognized the pattern of knowledge being siloed, we set out to build these tools thinking on a horizontal level, how can we get information from the east coast of Canada or the US to the West Coast? How can we get it from UCLA to New York City? We weren't thinking vertically and the value of that is something that's only come to us in the last little while. 

The same tools that we built to share information between hospitals also works, for example, from the WHO, to the CDC, to New York City Department of Health is being customized each step of the way down, being localized for local factors. There's real value in that vertical flow of knowledge from the Apex Global Health Organization down to the point of care at individual hospitals, each step of the way accommodating local factors. So the combination of horizontal sharing between organizations and vertical sharing between tiers, through the Apex Organization, through governments and hospitals, we think rather than a tree, it creates something of a constellation. And that, to us seems to have great value. 

Another part of the ecosystem and something that is, it's quite timely, was mentioned in the the Lancet article that I mentioned earlier, local data, specifically resistance data or the measure of a drug's effectiveness against a particular bug, it's a really key data point. And there are lots of good international data gathering initiatives at the moment. 

For example, there's a WHO Glass program, which gathers resistance data on a global basis. That Lancet study, I believe, had something like 145 million samples included. The data was based on that kind of a very, very large data set, which is wonderful. There's enormous value in that. The resistance data at the point of care gives clinicians a very clear direction, do I prescribe antibiotic A for this infection or antibiotic B? 

Resistance trends in a developed world gives clinicians those tools. And from the developed world, we're funneling data. The WHO, for example, are doing an excellent job of gathering data on a global basis. We collectively are not doing a wonderful job of distributing that data back down. So it's all very well gathering data from Ghana or Nigeria, we can see the trends of resistance in those countries, that's enormously helpful. Even more helpful is what happens next. 

What should happen next, we believe is that that resistance data should be funneled back down and made available to clinicians on their mobile devices, so that they can make the best possible decisions with all the tools that are available, rather than operating as they do now, largely blind. And this isn't a silver bullet. This isn't the only factor. There are other factors like access to medicines, but access to data is really significant to health. So that also goes towards creating a global ecosystem where data flows both ways, and there is free, unencumbered shared access.

Bisi Williams  27:36  

I think that's fantastic. When you think about this, there's this current cat and mouse game that's being played between groups of clinicians and physicians, etc. How do you think your vision of synthesizing this information and allowing for the flow of this very pertinent and timely information will improve their lives?

Jason Buck  28:02  

This is a tricky one, I'll say, when I came into health care, five, six years ago, I was surprised to find a level of adversarial or perhaps even antipathy felt by clinicians towards industry. These are two cohorts that are largely mutually dependent. Modern medicine is absolutely dependent on the farmer and the medical industry. The medical industry is equally clearly dependent on clinicians. To my mind, the chasm between them, I found very surprising. 

When we were doing some of our outreach and research into creating our ID specialist community, we talked to a lot of clinicians, policy folks, some industry folks, and we heard multiple times that clinicians were not happy to be involved in a community that included industry. And that's the path that we would have taken as the path we're on now. I think in the long term, there are things that we can do to help bridge that gap. 

Trust, in my mind at least, can be enhanced enormously through transparency. We think that one of the ways that we are maybe able to help this in the future. This is going to need some careful thought and development of the idea. One of the ways that we might be able to help is to create environments in which industry is able to share product information, which is of enormous value to clinicians. If that environment is open and accessible and visible to all clinicians concurrently, that information can be interrogated and interpreted openly by those clinicians. We can hopefully have a more dynamic back and forth and arrive at a broader based understanding of what this product does, how it actually can be useful in practice, and because it is transparent, because it's completely open, we think that there can be more trust generated in that conversation, which should benefit industry from the perspective that their products information is actually treated with greater credence. From a clinician standpoint, it means that hopefully, research and cutting edge treatments find their way into clinical practice a little bit faster.

Bisi Williams  30:42  

Which would be an amazing benefit for the end user, which would be the client and the patient. 

Jason Buck  30:49  

Yeah, that's exactly it. 

Bisi Williams  30:52  

I love that. And so tell me, Jason, why are you confident that your idea and vision for this cohesive, comprehensive, fast moving sharing of knowledge and information can be achieved within 30 years to have better outcomes and delivery?

Jason Buck  31:09  

That's a that's a really good question. There are some elements of this that are unknown, that we have been able to develop as an organization over the last few years. And we can see that the trajectory that these developments are on will get us to where we want to go. They will get us to the point where clinical knowledge does flow freely between organizations without some of the barriers that exist now. That we're very confident in. 

Some of the other elements, for instance, the flow of data on a global basis, there is some uncertainty about that. I think we're confident that some of the tools that we've developed and some of the tools that other people are developing will assist very greatly. 

One of the factors that gives me considerable optimism is that we do seem to be something of an inflection point. A lot has been learned through the pandemic, there seems to be a greater willingness to make systemic changes when needed. There also seems to be increasing recognition of the global inequities in health care, and the very concrete impacts of those, the very real costs in human terms for infectious diseases and for AMR, in particular. 

I'm optimistic that the penny is finally beginning to drop, that infectious diseases need to be fought on a collaborative basis. And that it's beginning to be clearly heard that AMR is a humanity scale challenge and that open collaboration offers our very best chance of meeting that challenge. So a combination of technology and practices and flows that are already in place, and that we can see that there is a very clear growth path gives me a certain level of confidence.

Bisi Williams  33:06  

I think that's important, I mean, we are about optimism, but we're fact based optimism here. I would just like to push back a little bit more. To your mind, what are we not doing today that we could be doing right now, in terms of this little niggly problem that can get us there faster?

Jason Buck  33:27  

There's one element, when I describe two wings of attacking AMR, under the stewardship umbrella, there is one truly significant element, which actually is not covered by, certainly it is human health, the fact is that over 70% of all antibiotic use is in agriculture and they are primarily used not for infectious disease treatment, but as growth promoters. Antibiotic resistant infections can and do make their way into humans through the meat that we consume. 

And there are many global initiatives that recognize this, including the WHO's, One Health Initiative, and there's a UN Tripartite Organization linking the relevant agencies together, but there is relatively little in the way of stewardship or even infectious disease guidance for animals. And that's something that we do think can be changed. 

We've worked with a Canadian vet organization and we're now working with some American organizations to essentially try to bring our human grade software to distribute infectious disease guidance to currently about 15,000 vets across Canada. Once that guidance is created, we think we're able to propagate it globally with the localizations that are needed. 

Again, this is something that we're working on actively but we don't have a concrete path to the future. I think it's really important to say though, that while we see an opportunity as Firstline to help improve animal health and consequently human health, this is not a solution to AMR in animals. The largest impact in reducing the use of antibiotics in animals would come from policy changes. It would come from government or industry organizations, the agriculture industry themselves. At the end of the day, the decision to use antibiotics and farming is economic, rather than related to the treatment or prevention of infectious diseases. So this is the big elephant in the room and there is no question that this is going to need to be addressed.

Bisi Williams  35:36  

So then if we think we're being good stewards of our own health by minimizing our use of antibiotics or using them when necessary, but we don't really have a control over that, because perhaps the food that we're eating has antibiotics in it as well.

Jason Buck  35:55  

That is, unfortunately, correct.

Bisi Williams  35:57  

Interesting. And so I love that you're working on the whole animal husbandry veterinary portion of this by resistance control, but it does have implications for the future of our health, 100%.

Jason Buck  36:11  

It absolutely does. There's no doubt that as hard as we're fighting, I don't want to suggest for a moment that our service is a silver bullet here. But as hard as we are looking for optimizations in human health, there is a very large animal component here, which is why it has been recognized by the United Nations. There are initiatives underway to try and address it. 

At the end of the day, it's not an infectious disease related decision to prescribe antibiotics or to give antibiotics to animals. And it is something that we as a society need to wrestle with. We are going to need to decide whether perhaps our food is going to cost a little more because it will cost a little more to raise a chicken to the required weight.

Bisi Williams  37:19  

Wow. And that leads me to my next question, Jason, which is, why is your vision and idea is so important, and how does it make the world a better place?

Jason Buck  37:29  

The reason it's important is simply the prevalence of infectious diseases, and the increasing prevalence of antimicrobial resistance. When the WHO made AMR a global health priority, they released some data that suggested that at the time, I think this was 2015, they estimated 700,000 deaths per year attributable to AMR. They further estimated that that number would increase to 10 million per year by 2050. Those studies in the light of recent data actually look to be somewhat conservative. 

The AMR is a global scale issue. Unless we address it effectively, it's going to become even more significant. There's perhaps a notion that infectious disease and antimicrobial resistance is something that affects big, scary, distant, far flung places, it's something that's related to let's say, meningitis or to pneumonia, or malaria. That's not the case, antibiotics and antimicrobials are used throughout modern medicine. They're used in dentistry, they're used in cosmetic surgery, there is very little in modern medicine that would not be touched by increasing antimicrobial resistance. There's no question that this is an issue, which touches every part of modern medicine. And it is something that is unquestionably going to be of increasing significance in the future.

Bisi Williams  39:15  

Right, I mean, because if people actually follow your vision, collaborate, synthesize, share information, by 2050, we could probably turn those numbers around and get better quality of care.

Jason Buck  39:30  

Absolutely. We know that it results in a reduced readmission rate, reduced length of stay. At the end of the day, better clinical knowledge results in better patient outcomes. And that's good for everyone.

Bisi Williams  39:46  

Amazing for everyone. Jason, I'm so inspired by you and your work and how you use design to make our lives better. Thank you for sharing your information with us on Health2049. It's a pleasure to have you on the show.

Jason Buck  40:00  

You're very welcome Bisi.

Bisi Williams  40:03  

That was Jason Buck's vision for health and wellness in the year 2049. If you like what you heard, please subscribe rate and review and tell one friend about us. Thank you for listening. I'm your host Bisi Williams, take care and be well.