Barbara Groth, Founder & Creative Director, Nomadic School of Wonder
How do we shift from ego to eco in health care? Barbara Groth, Founder and Creative Director of the Nomadic School of Wonder and Executive Director, Experience Design of Meow Wolf, shares an experiential design approach that taps into the presence and wonder of nature and animals to create daily habits that enhance wellness.
Barbara Groth is founder and creative director of the Nomadic School of Wonder and Executive Director, Experience Design for the immersive art project known as Meow Wolf in Santa Fe, New Mexico. Barbara has spent thirty years at the intersection of creativity, emerging technologies and human centered design for the likes of Walt Disney Imagineering, Pixar, Google, x, LACMA, LEGO, Vulcan, Bruce Mau Design, the Museum of Science & Industry and the Los Angeles Dodgers.
Since founding the Nomadic School of Wonder in 2015, Barbara leads a traveling troupe of artists, teachers and adventurers who create “adventures in awe” in small towns throughout the world. Each site specific sensory driven adventure is a unique, joyous and spontaneous experience into the unknown. By weaving together nature, art, community and play, the Nomadic School of Wonder aims to restore our limitless imagination, expand our creative potential and deepen our connection to ourselves, each other and to the natural world.
Show Notes
Barbara Groth shares her journey in experience design from innovative technology to exploring our natural world. [03:35]
Redefining wellness by tapping into the aliveness of nature. [06:55]
How can we design our lives to be full of a sense of wonder, purpose and connectedness? [12:29]
If we create our lives with strategy rather than urgency, how will it affect our health and well-being? [13:52]
What does it mean to shift your life’s purpose from working to live to living to work? [15:58]
What role does money play? [17:42]
Reimagining how a medical professional might write a prescription. [20:01]
Three things we can do to be more connected and attuned to ourselves and nature to embody living wisdom. [22:56]
Nature can fill your medicine chest with incredible ways to boost health and well-being. [24:45]
What are the obstacles to achieving this vision of 2049? [25:28]
Shifting from ego to eco. [25:56]
Transcript
Bisi Williams: I'm Bisi Williams. You're listening to Health 2049.
Barbara Groth: For me, it's like the three elements presence, awareness and aliveness. I think if you collect yourself, become present, find some sort of ritual or activity that you can do on a daily basis, tuning into the sky, the trees, the water, wherever you are in the world, I think you will find that you will be brought alive in a way that will not only have you enjoying your daily ritual, whatever that might be, but also having all these other side effects, which are the good kind of side effects of lowering your heart rate, your blood pressure, other things that I think are ailments of our overly do do do modern world.
Bisi Williams: I'm excited to welcome Barbara Groth to our show today. She spent 30 years pushing the boundaries of what is possible in the fields of emerging technologies, human design experience, interactivity animation and storytelling for the likes of Walt Disney, Imagineering, Pixar, Google and Paul Allen's Vulcan. She is a multimedia pioneer and award winning producer, director and filmmaker. She is Founder and Creative Director of the Nomadic School of Wonder and Executive Director Experience Design for the immersive art project known as Meow Wolf in Santa Fe, New Mexico.
Since building the Nomadic School of Wonder in 2015, she leads a traveling troop of artists, teachers and adventurers to create adventures in awe in small towns throughout the world by weaving together nature, art community and play. The Nomadic School of Wonder aims to restore our limitless imagination, expand our creative potential and deepen our connection to ourselves, each other and to the natural world. It is my pleasure to welcome Barbara Groth to our show.
Barbara Groth: [03:08] Hi, Bisi. Thank you so much.
Bisi Williams: [03:11] Barb, I invited you to talk about health and wellness in the future with me because of your success with Walt Disney Imagineering, Deepak Chopra and Meow Wolf, to name a few, you created programs and experiences to benefit large communities that no one has done before. Describe for our listeners the evolution of your practice from tech and innovation to analog and life-centered practice experience design.
Barbara Groth: [03:35] It's so hard looking back on your life and your work and kind of finding that through line it's there. But I think ultimately it comes from ever since I was a kid asking a lot of questions and being curious. And I think it also comes from moments where I felt most alive and most connected to being in the world. And so I think somehow those two combinations of things have been a thread through my work, whether it's teaching design thinking, whether it's designing experiences for health and well-being with Deepak Chopra back in the 90s and early 2000s, or whether it was doing a film on the poet Rumi in Turkey or whether it was designing Turtle Talk with Crush with Walt Disney Imagineering, I think what they all have is kind of a searcher quality to them, in search of these moments or creating the conditions for these moments where we feel most alive.
And I think where it's had its fullest expression in many ways has been in my latest venture from the last six years, which is called the Nomadic School of Wonder. And what we do is we create adventures in awe, and we take people in the before times and in the after times to remote areas throughout the world, and we explore a theme and we explore it through the senses. It's through nature art, community and play.
And so what we found in doing these experiences that are, let's say, low tech, no tech analog, as you refer to, is that we need very little to enliven our senses and enliven our well-being. And I think I've really loved it as kind of a counterpoint to all the work I've done in technology and human-centered design is to really let nature lead the way a little bit more in what we do and look at all living things like centered in the world of all living things rather than just humans.
And so what we found in our work kind of accidentally is that all the things we were intuitively drawn to, whether it be forest bathing or working with wild Mustangs in Utah and in New Mexico was that these things are actually really good for our wellness, that they lower our blood pressure, that they raise our sense of belonging, that amplify our creativity. So for me, it was really kind of like, how do we explore what it's like to really live again? I think it's even more so post pandemic, it's even more important for us to remember, what are those things in everyday life and in the world that bring us more alive. And I think the more we get in harmony with that, the more well-being and the less disease we will have.
Bisi Williams: [06:40] I love that. And so now I want to go on a wonder trek with you and our audience, and I'm excited to learn from you. What is your vision for health and wellness in 2049?
Barbara Groth: [06:55] It's an interesting challenge, when you threw this out, 2049. I'll probably be in my 80s if I'm still around at that time. And so I started dreaming into it personally. And then I also started dreaming into it for the next generation. And I've done a lot of science fiction and a lot of projects about future. And my dream is that the future is going to not necessarily be a more technology heavy, especially technology visible world. I really feel like we're already shifting from kind of the human-centered existence, which really is a bit of more of an ego approach to life on Earth, to kind of more of an all species centered living and honoring the fact that we share this planet with close to 8.7 million other species.
I think we're going to start to once again value and listen to the intelligence of nature, of animals, the living world around us. And I think we're going to use technology, at least this is my hope, you gave me the permission to kind of dream into a vision which is one that I'd like to see and I think we're going to use technology not to dominate nature and animals, but to co-create a shared relational experience based on biodiversity, potentiality, and love. Love sounds very 60s hippy dippy, but I really think that often what we're tapping into when we tap into the presence of wonder and awe and the connection that we feel between people is this energetic, invisible, powerful force that is love, is the energy of love.
So I know it sounds very utopian, but I also think that unless we do kind of reframe how we experience the world around us and how we realize that we are nature, like Andy Goldsworthy says, and how Bruce Mau says we are not separate from or above nature in MC24. I think that until we recalibrate those experiences in our bodies, that we're going to continue to have more and more disease.
So for a vision in 2049, I think that we're going to just create real relationships with the Earth. We're going to tap into the wisdom of trees. I know this sounds like it's right out of some sort of Disney songbook or something, cue the music, plants and animals. But I really do think that I find that if I just go out my front door, I happen to live near some mountains here in Santa Fe, and I take a walk and I start the walk, maybe not in the best of mood or overthinking something, I go for a walk whether I hold a question or just tune in my senses, I have shifted. I know my blood pressure has dropped during the walk. I know my blood sugar has dropped during the walk, and I know that I'm feeling a sense of connection and what people would refer to as oneness. And often people refer to as wonder and awe when that happens. So I just have a feeling that we're going to go back to ancient technologies, ancient wisdom traditions in cooperation with science. And the more that we know in science, it tends to reinforce what ancient traditions have been saying forever.
So how do we bring those together to solve not only our gnarliest problems, but enhance the way that we live our lives on a daily basis so that our bodies feel more at ease, more in comfort. You already see this now with forest bathing and I just imagine in the future that a RX from a healer, shaman, doctor, I don't know, just whatever that person is going to be called, will include recommendations to go spend some time with the wild mustangs, to sit on a forest floor to simply play.
I'm generalizing here, but I think we've lost our sense of play and adventure and purposeless activity purely for sheer enjoyment. And this is what I learned from animals. When I was doing a lot of the projects for Disney and others, I was kind of known as a play expert, especially around social play. And then I brought home a six and a half pound Chihuahua that told me, you know nothing about play. Let me tell you about play. I think play and how we create more experiences in our daily lives of playful aliveness in our bodies. I think we're going to feel more kind of creativity and ease in our bodies and our minds.
Bisi Williams: [12:06] So let's just talk about that for a little bit. Can you imagine in 2049, for example, you talk about some of the issues that are really profound today about loneliness, isolation and lack of fulfillment. Tell us how you could imagine designing our lives to be full of this sense of wonder and purpose and connectedness.
Barbara Groth: [12:29] I personally think that if I think back 30 years from this moment and 30 years forward, a lot of the same things may be approached differently, but I think one of the most important conditions for our well-being is presencing, and people do that in a number of different ways, meaning that they become fully present. They become aware of their surroundings and aware of their senses. And I think for us that it's done through a number of different ways that you can do that. You can just do that by walking out your front door and tuning in your senses to nature or to your surroundings. You can also do it through art. People do it through gathering and sharing and ceremony. People also do it with animals, whether it be horses or wolves or interspecies way of presencing with a being that is often seen as the other. And then to realize the connection and the nonverbal connection.
Bisi Williams: [13:33] I love that because you talk about time. Time is really important and the question is, what would it mean if we designed our life with strategy rather than urgency? And what does that mean for our health and our well-being?
Barbara Groth: [13:52] Yeah. It's so interesting because we've had this grand experiment where the whole world had to stop time in a way. We had to kind of get off the so-called merry-go-round. And I think our sense of time has shifted by doing that. And I think we have had time to pause and reflect whether we liked it or not.
I think it's that, to me I think the two things when I think about strategy over urgency, strategy, for me, is not just having a very detailed plan of where to go next it's having time to pause, reflect, look at the big picture. Think about really, what are the deeper goals of what we're trying to achieve, whether it's in our lives or in a project at work, and then something that I call the natural next thing is to say, okay, what's the natural next thing that we could do towards that end versus what is the way in which we just urgently do something about it. And I think the difference is the pause, reflect, think a little deeper, maybe take a walk, what I call a wonder walk, a little sensory wonder walk, carry a question, create a beautiful question, carry it, walk with it, and really be attuned for kind of deeper wisdom that will come. And I think that when we don't do that, it takes so little time to do that, when we don't do that, we end up making very responsive choices that are based on often not really what the deeper need is and the deeper desire and the deeper goal.
Bisi Williams: [15:42] I think that's fascinating. You also described work, high pressure environments, highly creative environments and when you shifted your life's purpose from working to live to living to work, can you tell our listeners what that means?
Barbara Groth: [15:58] Let's see, I've always been focused on experiences. In fact, I was told that really early on in my life that I valued experiences over things. And I think it's probably a good thing I became an experienced designer for that reason. I realized as I was creating a number of experiential offerings for different audiences, whether it be at Disney Imagineering or for a museum client or for retail or for something in public space, is that I was often on the creating side.
Then I decided that I was going to move to New Mexico, and I was going to kind of put myself into my own school of wonder and be on the receiving side. And I really realized that it's sort of an exchange that needs to take place. If we're going to design and create these kind of experiences for people, I think we first need to tend to and design that kind of experience in our everyday lives. And I think when we do that, I think we design from a different sense of clarity. And I also think it just allows us to be more creative and more experimental in the work that we do. So how can we design the time of our lives and I think when we do that, then purpose and then feeling like you're more alive in your everyday life.
Bisi Williams: [17:26] Well, that's amazing and I'm just going to push back a bit. What role does money play in this? Does it sound like? Well, it sounds amazing. And I completely truck with you, the question is, is this something for people with means?
Barbara Groth: [17:42] Yeah. I'm hoping that we crack this nut here. I totally get what you're saying, the connection of wealth to health. I really feel like we have been making short term, old school decisions about business. And I think that if we think a little bit more long term, we will actually be creating real wealth rather than kind of wealth that is based on short term gains and greed. I personally feel that the pandemic has really given us an opportunity to rethink about what is enough and what is too much.
And I'm seeing in the younger generations, younger than me, I'm in my 50s. They are really starting to turn back to nature, turn to making a living in a more purposeful way. And I do think we have to figure out a way in which we can create an ecosystem that really has a responsibility to honor all of the living beings within that ecosystem.
I'm not a Nobel Prize winning economics professor, but I have a hunch that if we looked a little bit longer term, if we handled some of these health and well-being issues that I think underneath them all are kind of maybe what drives some of the greed, if we really were to find a way to live more fully alive lives and have community and create connection, perhaps some of the things that drive that greed will be seen for kind of what I often think is kind of a hollowness. I think it's how we redefine happiness, how we redefine what is enough and being okay with that.
Bisi Williams: [19:39] I think that's perfect. That makes perfect sense, when I think about you as an experienced designer and I think about you being in touch with community for your vision, would you help us reimagine how a healer might write a prescription for high blood pressure? What would that experience be like?
Barbara Groth: [20:01] I'm already seeing it today where when Western medicine is at a loss for how to handle something or even some studies that have been happening now is that they realize that, yes, it's what you eat. Yes, it's your exercise. But there are a lot of people, as we all know, that eat crazy things and don't exercise and live long and healthy and full lives. And I think it has to do with how we are relating to the world around us.
And so we do these experiences where we bring people to the wild mustangs. Then we have people that adopt them and actually give them sanctuary and give them a place to live out their lives and create a new herd. Then we bring humans, humans of all different kinds, currently, we're starting to bring humans that were frontline health care workers with the horses to a sanctuary here in Santa Fe, New Mexico called a Chance of a Lifetime Sanctuary.
Bisi Williams: [20:58] Wait, why do you bring the health care workers to this mustang ranch?
Barbara Groth: [21:03] Well, this is the work of two people that run the Chance of a Lifetime Sanctuary. And they have been for years now working with people with trauma and with the horses. There's something about bringing the horses and the humans together, who have both been through trauma to create resilience, create connection and to actually, there's sort of a mystery of what happens in this communion between the horse and the human. But often what happens is things like your blood pressure is reduced. Your sense of connection and well-being are enhanced.
And so this is a hypothesis that we're just starting with right now. But we just thought there's so many people that have been put through intense trauma over this past year, but probably no more than frontline healthcare workers and essential workers. And so we thought, let's bring them together in very small groups and create a bit of an experiment to see what happened. So we're just embarking on this experiment. But it's based on years of working with women in trauma and other populations and communities with the horses.
Bisi Williams: [22:21] So when I think about this question that you've just answered so beautifully as it relates to your vision for 2049, where we live a more attuned life while we are more connected with nature and attuned with ourselves and we build positive relationships, what you're really talking about, I feel is like a living vision for 2049. And if we were to really push that, what can we do today to embody this living wisdom that you talk about for 2049?
Barbara Groth: [22:56] So for me, it's like the three elements which I put in my living vision for 2049 is presence, awareness and aliveness. I think if you collect yourself, become present, find some sort of ritual or activity that you can do on a daily basis, bring some awareness to that tuning into the sky, the trees, the water, wherever you are in the world, to the sounds of the city. I think you will find that you will be brought alive in a way that will not only have you enjoying your daily ritual, whatever that might be, but also having all these other side effects, which are the good kind of side effects of lowering your heart rate, your blood pressure, other things that I think are ailments of our overly do do do modern world.
So I would say what Thich Nhat Hanh, the Buddhist teacher talks about, which is interbeing, if you can find ways in your life to be with nature, be with other humans, be with animals, be with other living things, I think that you'll see the world in a different place, and I think you'll see your life and your experience of life come more alive.
Bisi Williams: [24:23] Barb, what you describe sounds so awesome. The impact of what you suggest for our health and well-being is enormous. And yet looking at the sky doesn't cost a thing. Sitting next to somebody that you love doesn't cost a thing in a material sense. But the returns are huge.
Barbara Groth: [24:45] Yeah, I actually think it's so accessible. I mean, that's a big part of what we do go to all these wildly beautiful places on the planet with the Nomadic School of Wonder. And then we also do things in the backyard. And I actually think our backyards, front yards, the street, a walk in nature, a walk in the park, can really fill your medicine chest with all sorts of incredible ways of being in a state of health and well-being.
Bisi Williams: [25:21] So Barb, you paint a beautiful vision for 2049. But can you tell us what some of the obstacles may be?
Barbara Groth: [25:29] I would sum up the obstacles under a category called ego. E-G-O. I think that we are, as humans, so referenced by our egos, there's a lot of underlying things there, and our egos are fragile and they're fear-based.
Bisi Williams: [25:50] I love this phrase ego to eco. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?
Barbara Groth: [25:56] Well, it's interesting, I've been seeing this graphic being passed around for, I don't know maybe a few years now, but there's one graphic that says ego and it has a human at the top of all these species, and then eco is a circle with the human inside there, along with your whales and your starfish and your snakes and your sharks and your chickens, in your natural world. And for me, it just so blatantly shows us where we are out of balance. That's really what I mean by how do we shift from ego to eco in terms of our reference point?
Bisi Williams: [26:36] That's beautiful. Barb, I love that. I'm so inspired by your vision. Thank you so much for joining us today.
Barbara Groth: [26:44] Thank you Bisi. So nice to have the opportunity to dream into 2049.
Bisi Williams: [26:50] And that wraps our show with Barbara Groth. Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed our show, please subscribe or share with a friend, and until next time I'm Bisi Williams.
